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But they are all making good changes that are politically driven, if not in the same way states' decisions are politically driven.

JJ: Well, except California could turn around. I think, at the end of the day, if we have to depend on NGOs [nongovernmental organizations], we're in deep trouble. I think it has to be fundamental social change. Why are people smoking less? It's not because they got put in jail or fined. And why
do women genuinely have more parity--not total, but more than they used to? These are fundamental social changes.

Which got pushed by policy changes.

JJ: Yes. By social activism.

And the environmental groups are the harbingers.

JJ: Yes, though they used to be more. There used to be a time when five to ten million people showed up for Earth Day. I believe that almost universally, the environmental organizations have become too corporate, they've turned off youth. There's not just a conflict between left and right, and blue state and red state; there's an enormous conflict between everybody over 20 and everybody under 20. And none of the environmental organizations know how to reach those people.

The generation gap has gotten even stronger because of the acceleration of mass communication, and the fact that you used to have to listen to ABC or NBC, and now you have 300 choices. The president of the United States could come on television to tell us that we're being invaded by Martians for real, and he would get a 15 percent viewer audience.

So the ability to focus effectively has been dramatically eroded. And it's a much more populist society. Which is why somebody like Schwarzenegger, of all people, because he's savvy about those sorts of things, can be effective, much more so than other people who just don't understand.

The generation gap. A more populist society. Shifting baselines extend from marine conservation into the very heart of social change. One point that should not be forgotten is that we all need to listen to each other, and respect each other. Different groups will have different perspectives--different baselines. It's an ongoing dance, one we have to keep learning new steps to. Not fancy steps. Just ones that work.

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